“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17, NASB)

“But You Haven’t Talked To Him Personally!”

As I said on other occasions, and most recently on The Mike Corley Program (MCP), since both Erwin McManus and I are teachers in the public arena and he has not sinned against me privately Matthew 18:15-17 simply does not apply.

However, on the other hand 1 Timothy 1:18-20 and 2 Timothy 2:16-18 do. Therein the great Apostle Paul names the names of false teachers and these letters were read publicly in churches…even to this day.

What follows next is the excerpt from that “talk” given by barbarian cultural architect Erwin McManus at Reach 2007 presented by the National Religious Broadcasters to which I refer on MCP:

Erwin McManus:

And I can tell you when I began this journey in L.A. fifteens years ago I was just an attender at Mosaic. It wasn’t called Mosaic then, it had a different name. It was called The Church on Brady, which actually had a legal name of “First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles” (audience laughter). That’s a beautifully relevant name, isn’t it? (audience laughter)

And I was just an attender there, and the pastor asked me if I would consider taking over the congregation–or leading the congregation. And he’d been there twenty-five years and I was very adamant and very clear I have no desire to be a pastor. I wanted to do something meaningful with my life (audience laughter). And I had the mission of Christ on my heart; I wanted to see the world reached for Him. And I, after examining the local church felt it was no longer a valid instrument to really bring cultural transformation.

And, and, through a number of things–through God just beating me up–and reminding me how much He loves the church and I need to love the church like he loves the church, next thing I knew I was the pastor of this place. And ah, and it did not go well. I mean, fifteen years ago I started slicing films and bringing them into my talks and buying fortune cookies and putting my points in them on Sunday mornings.

And, and little did I know it would create such extraordinary turmoil that I would have meeting after meeting after meeting because people felt what we were doing was immoral, unbiblical, unethical. But I think the first conversation I had in my office with an elder and a couple, six months after I was there, he came to me and was very upset where the church was going and then he said this: “The church has become too evangelistic.” (audience laughs)

And I was a young man then, without as many wounds and scars as I have now; but I looked at him and I said: “I want to be able to quote you accurately.” Because I knew I’d be quoting him the rest of my life (audience laughs)

I said: “You just said, ‘the church is too evangelistic.’”

And he said: “That’s right.”

And I said, “You know, I don’t know a lot about the future, but I know this; if you don’t like us today, you’re gonna hate us a year from now.” (audience laughs)

(NRB Reach 2007, CD Rom, 21:49-23:52)

Setting The Record Straight

As I mentioned on MCP I have personally spoken with the man McManus is talking about above. His name is Frank Loaiza and he has kindly given me permission to share with the readers of Apprising Ministries that he has told me on the phone what it was he had actually said.

What Loaiza said was, “I think we have become too focused on evangelism and not enough on discipleship. I think we need to also focus on training and making disciples, and not just evangelizing.”

And I have also spoken on the phone with another man who confirms that McManus personally told him on four separate occasions that Frank Loaiza is the man that he refers to in the above transcript.

In fact Loaiza discusses this as well as some other issues concerning Erwin McManus and his style of leadership in an interview done by Ruben Aguilar which may cast light on an apparent need to use spin control in regard to the past.

I present the link now to this interview with both of their permission here.